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the ban on anc was lifted. and on february 11th, 1990, nelson mandela walked to freedom. >> nelson mandela, free at last and back among his people. >> i thank you all. >> reporter: 27 years in prison had not weakened mandela's resolve. >> i'm going to go on as long as the government has not responded to us. >> reporter: but he also urged restraint, even forgiveness telling blacks to, quote, throw their guns into the sea and reassuring anxious whites. >> whites are fellow south africans and we want them to feel safe. >> reporter: mandela's courage and sacrifice was recognized around the world. in america he was welcomed as a hero. mandela and declerk were awarded the nobel peace prize in 1993. the following year in the first mixed race election in south africa's history, nelson mandela was elected president. >> today is a day like no other before it. >> reporter: we were the first to interview him on that first morning as president elect. mandela tempered south africa's joy when he said healing his country would
the ban on anc was lifted. and on february 11th, 1990, nelson mandela walked to freedom. >> nelson mandela, free at last and back among his people. >> i thank you all. >> reporter: 27 years in prison had not weakened mandela's resolve. >> i'm going to go on as long as the government has not responded to us. >> reporter: but he also urged restraint, even forgiveness telling blacks to, quote, throw their guns into the sea and reassuring anxious whites. >>...
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let's remember, the anc that he refers to, they were pursuing freedom. many of the communist nations embraced them, this country did not. it was not like they were born marxist, they were born people seeking to be free. some of the marxist nation either genuinely or in a self-interest way tried to embrace that. this country did not and fought that and denounced them and denigrated them. and i think for us now to sugarcoat that is a betrayal of history. we chose sides. we chose the wrong side. people in this country turned us around toward the right side. that set the stage for mandela to evolve. but if you're drowning and someone throws you your raft to get out, you don't call them a rafter, you call yourself the one that's trying to stop from drowning. those are the ones that threw the raft in south africa for freedom fighters. >> i think you have to put the african national liberation movements in the global context of the struggle against communism. as the reverend said, they were supported by the soviet union, they were funded by the soviet union, th
let's remember, the anc that he refers to, they were pursuing freedom. many of the communist nations embraced them, this country did not. it was not like they were born marxist, they were born people seeking to be free. some of the marxist nation either genuinely or in a self-interest way tried to embrace that. this country did not and fought that and denounced them and denigrated them. and i think for us now to sugarcoat that is a betrayal of history. we chose sides. we chose the wrong side....
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he had joined the african national congress, the anc, way back in 1944. the anc and the other major organizations opposing apartheid in south africa had been organized as nonviolent movements, nonviolent resistance, and nonviolent organizing. but after sharpville, they decided that maybe that wasn't enough. after sharpville, they decided they would form a paramilitary wing, and nelson mandela was one of the anc leader who is went underground to help start it. they said they would target government buildings and strategic infrastructure and they would try to sabotage the state. after sharpville, the government of south africa started mass arrests of anc leaders and other activists. they banned the anc. they made it illegal to be a member of that group. nelson mandela was arrested for treason in 1961, he was acquitted and he was convicted of traveling illegally. they sentenced him to five years hard labor on south africa's version of alcatraz, which is robin island. while he was already serving that sentence, while he was already in prison, they put him on
he had joined the african national congress, the anc, way back in 1944. the anc and the other major organizations opposing apartheid in south africa had been organized as nonviolent movements, nonviolent resistance, and nonviolent organizing. but after sharpville, they decided that maybe that wasn't enough. after sharpville, they decided they would form a paramilitary wing, and nelson mandela was one of the anc leader who is went underground to help start it. they said they would target...
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let's remember, the anc that he refers to, they were pursuing freedom. many of the communist nations embraced them, this country did not. it was not like they were born marxist, they were born people seeking to be free. some of the marxist nation either genuinely or in a self-interest way tried to embrace that. this country did not and fought that and denounced them and denigrated them. and i think for us now to sugarcoat that is a betrayal of history. we chose sides. we chose the wrong side. people in this country turned us around toward the right side. that set the stage for mandela to evolve. but if you're drowning and someone throws you your raft to get out, you don't call them a rafter, you call yourself the one that's trying to stop from drowning. those are the ones that threw the raft in south africa for freedom fighters. >> i think you have to put the african national liberation movements in the global context of the struggle against communism. as the reverend said, they were supported by the soviet union, they were funded by the soviet union, th
let's remember, the anc that he refers to, they were pursuing freedom. many of the communist nations embraced them, this country did not. it was not like they were born marxist, they were born people seeking to be free. some of the marxist nation either genuinely or in a self-interest way tried to embrace that. this country did not and fought that and denounced them and denigrated them. and i think for us now to sugarcoat that is a betrayal of history. we chose sides. we chose the wrong side....
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that's true in the anc of many leader. they made a sacrifice for the cause, and it took an economic toll on their families. >> we're seeing the outpouring in these days since mandela's death, but how distant a figure had he become in the country? >> not distant at all. i think nelson mandela was still the moral center. and many with their disappointment about the leadership of the anc and its more material orientation would refer back to nelson mandela. 2005, 2007, 2011, his presence was still important within the anc. you'll recall in 2013 the anc leadership took pictures with him to try to shore up their own presence. his activism in the party diminished even just over two years or so. >> we're going to be hearing from president obama later this morning. we'll also hear from several members of the mandela family. that is andrew melengheni, a president with nelson mandela in robben island. appears to be wrapping up again. >> thank you very much. >> thank you very much. we're here to mourn him in dignity. right now we woul
that's true in the anc of many leader. they made a sacrifice for the cause, and it took an economic toll on their families. >> we're seeing the outpouring in these days since mandela's death, but how distant a figure had he become in the country? >> not distant at all. i think nelson mandela was still the moral center. and many with their disappointment about the leadership of the anc and its more material orientation would refer back to nelson mandela. 2005, 2007, 2011, his...
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the rest of the anc, we think they are terrorists. it wasn't until 2008 that congress passed and president george w. bush, not his father, it wasn't until five years ago the u.s. government got around to signing legislation that he didn't need a waiver t.anc that governs south africa and has done so for two decades the designation of the anc as a terrorist group by the united states is a reminder sometimes our government, our political leaders, sometimes they get important things wrong. they get hugely important things very wrong. our country from the president to the mr. president, every day citizens right now our country is mourning the loss of mandela, remembering the life he lived the way he changed the world. our country in the western world wasn't always this united in viewing mandela as a hero. a part tied, apartness in the africano language, they were voted into office in south africa in then 48. they set about passing a series of impressive laws of racial segregation. they western considered citizens. in 1960 when drarts went
the rest of the anc, we think they are terrorists. it wasn't until 2008 that congress passed and president george w. bush, not his father, it wasn't until five years ago the u.s. government got around to signing legislation that he didn't need a waiver t.anc that governs south africa and has done so for two decades the designation of the anc as a terrorist group by the united states is a reminder sometimes our government, our political leaders, sometimes they get important things wrong. they...
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is the anc portraying that vision? when you look at president zuma's track record it seem to have went from corruption scandal to corruption scandal. i think many are sick of that because mandela was very materialistic so a very interesting comparison, i think, between the kurn presidency where you're talking about huge upgrades to mansions and houses and huge blue light brigades and mandela did things very simply. i think south africans look to that as the man who just his post presidential house was built as the same model. he got the architectural plans of the last house he stayed in when he was in prison, the warden's house and he got that rebuilt. so that gives you an idea of the kind of man and presidency that he had. [ speaking in foreign language ] >> we are talking about the world leaders who are here. it is an unprecedented collection of world leader and family members here now are taking the stage. these are the younger generation of the mandela family, the grandchildren. >> there they are. >> let's listen i
is the anc portraying that vision? when you look at president zuma's track record it seem to have went from corruption scandal to corruption scandal. i think many are sick of that because mandela was very materialistic so a very interesting comparison, i think, between the kurn presidency where you're talking about huge upgrades to mansions and houses and huge blue light brigades and mandela did things very simply. i think south africans look to that as the man who just his post presidential...
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the goal for the anc was democracy. civil nonviolence and then he married his first wife in johannesburg and then was sent to prison. the national party government banned the anc. he was sent to prison repeatedly. his wife ended up leaving him then and 60 plus more were killed during a demonstration. 180 were wounded so he was sent to prison for that. charged with sabotage. charged with conspiracy and then after prison got out and became president of south africa. what we're looking at right now is the memorial service. you can see people there that are excited because they're celebrating really, the life of nelson mandela. i read an interesting quote that he said. he said when a man has done his duty to the people, he can rest in peace. i believe i have made that effort and that is therefore why i will sleep for eternity. pretty powerful. now our senior foreign affairs correspondence is there at the stadium right now. telling us what's happening on the ground. what an impact he made in the lives of so many individuals.
the goal for the anc was democracy. civil nonviolence and then he married his first wife in johannesburg and then was sent to prison. the national party government banned the anc. he was sent to prison repeatedly. his wife ended up leaving him then and 60 plus more were killed during a demonstration. 180 were wounded so he was sent to prison for that. charged with sabotage. charged with conspiracy and then after prison got out and became president of south africa. what we're looking at right...
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he legalized the anc. and in february of 1990 he visited then 71 year old nelson mandela, still imprisoned 2 y7 r years later. and on february 11, 1990, nelson mandela emerged. >> i now announce to you the great mandela who has been in prison for 27 years. >> nelson mandela speaks after 27 years. >> fellow south africans, i greet you all in the name of peace. democracy and freedom for all. i stand here before you not as a prophet, but as a humble servant of you, the people. >> after 27 years in prison when nel some mandela was released he led the negotiations for the anc for the end of apartheid and apartheid was dismantled. and on the 27th of april, 1994 he was elected the new president of south africa in the first election ever held in that country where all adult citizens were welcome to vote regardless of race. millions of people waited in line to vote, in voting that took three days. and april 27 is now a national holiday in south africa. it's called freedom day. and when it came time to sign the new
he legalized the anc. and in february of 1990 he visited then 71 year old nelson mandela, still imprisoned 2 y7 r years later. and on february 11, 1990, nelson mandela emerged. >> i now announce to you the great mandela who has been in prison for 27 years. >> nelson mandela speaks after 27 years. >> fellow south africans, i greet you all in the name of peace. democracy and freedom for all. i stand here before you not as a prophet, but as a humble servant of you, the people....
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during his sentence, the government charmed mandela and other anc leaders with sabotage and attempting to violently overthrow the government. the winner of 1964, mandela and his colleagues were sentenced to in prison. mandela's brutal imprisonment helped win freedom for his nation. he represented himself and in his defense spoke out about democracy. equality and freedom. on february 2nd, 1990 amidst escalating international pressure, south african president lifted the ban on the anc and released mandela. mandela was awarded the nobel peace prize in december of 1993. in april of 1994, in south africa's first truly democratic election where all races were allowed to participate, nelson mandela was overwhelming elected to the presidency. he was battling a respiratory infection since early june. a remarkable man and a remarkable life and a model of stick-to-itiveness and never give up. a man of tremendous heart and compassion. dead this night at the age of 95. joining me tonight for our coverage on the passing of nelson mandela and joy reed of the grio and also with us tonight, dr. james p
during his sentence, the government charmed mandela and other anc leaders with sabotage and attempting to violently overthrow the government. the winner of 1964, mandela and his colleagues were sentenced to in prison. mandela's brutal imprisonment helped win freedom for his nation. he represented himself and in his defense spoke out about democracy. equality and freedom. on february 2nd, 1990 amidst escalating international pressure, south african president lifted the ban on the anc and...
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they belonged to the anc, the same organization. my grandmother was also a political leader within the anc. >> and your grandmother then also was close to him and visited him in prison, and nelson mandela wrote her. >> several times, and my grandmother would write back. she told me she wrote so many letters, some of which never reached him. a few made it all the way and she put them into a book. and after giving them to the archives. >> having visited him in prison where he suffered, he it tuberculosis, problems with his eyesight. she must have seen the suffering. what did she say or what do you think about how he left prison and had the grace and indignity to invite the gaolers. >> at this point i have to d admit when she came back i thought she'd come back with a message of fighting. let's continue the fight. she said, "you'll be surprised, my grandson, nelson mandela is going to tell us all to reconcile, shake hands with our former enemies." he is convinced he'll be released. she came back convinced the man had not changed. he wa
they belonged to the anc, the same organization. my grandmother was also a political leader within the anc. >> and your grandmother then also was close to him and visited him in prison, and nelson mandela wrote her. >> several times, and my grandmother would write back. she told me she wrote so many letters, some of which never reached him. a few made it all the way and she put them into a book. and after giving them to the archives. >> having visited him in prison where he...
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in other words the 80% of the population that is black has voted overwhelmingly for the anc. the opposition party has been predominately white. so unless or until south africa breaks out of that particular mold, it is difficult to bring about rapid change. so is it too much to ask, the people in townships, is it too much to ask of the government, 20 years of afc rule, to have brought about the dramatic changes that have improved the lives of the people in the townships? >> two issues here. twenty-first is the overall rate of economic growth has been disappointing. it's a little over 3% a year, that's substantially less. than say in china. the second is the educational system has failed the population. for reasons can are obscure. not very similar. about a quarter of the country's budget is on education. that being the case, why isn't the delivery very much better. >> that's a question we ask here in the united states. >> we do. >> so -- no one wants to be thought of as being pessimistic, or apisms so what degree of optimism do you have for the future of south africa. >> oh, p
in other words the 80% of the population that is black has voted overwhelmingly for the anc. the opposition party has been predominately white. so unless or until south africa breaks out of that particular mold, it is difficult to bring about rapid change. so is it too much to ask, the people in townships, is it too much to ask of the government, 20 years of afc rule, to have brought about the dramatic changes that have improved the lives of the people in the townships? >> two issues...
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there's still an emotional attachment to the anc. but a lot of people here and within the anc are starting to question where this party will take them in the next 20 years. and i think it's going to be a very difficult road, not only for the party but for this country, as it navigates i suppose the post-mandela era. and i think there are, depending who you speak to, there are challenges. there are complexities. and south africans are very much aware of that. >> sort of the young firebrand leader who's broken away from the anc, created his own party. >> he's caused a huge amount of trouble, julius melema. they've kicked him out of the party of that wing. even president obama when he went to south africa just a few months ago talked about the great transformation in all sorts of ways. there are many many ways, south africa for awhile was the engine of africa for a long time after mandela and democracy came. but it's slowing down obviously the growth, and there is massive corruption as robyn said. and the president pointed that out. thi
there's still an emotional attachment to the anc. but a lot of people here and within the anc are starting to question where this party will take them in the next 20 years. and i think it's going to be a very difficult road, not only for the party but for this country, as it navigates i suppose the post-mandela era. and i think there are, depending who you speak to, there are challenges. there are complexities. and south africans are very much aware of that. >> sort of the young firebrand...
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>> well, the anc, the ruling party is the people's party. they have a lot of support. that said, people are questioning the before of some of the politicians, they are wondering where is the country going forward. the mining incident you spoke about, 16 august, when miners on strike were trying to call for higher wages. police aped fire. 34 were shot and killed. the pictures shocked the world. they remind us of the apartheid dates when white policemen would shoot black people who were prote protesti protesting, calling for equality. i think the main thing of concern for south africans is nelson mandela taught them or encouraged them to forgive, forget and move forward. issues of employment and equality. people are frustrated. we are talking 20 years since independence. now we see more people striking. they are basically saying, "what are you going do as a government. now that the moral compass has gone, can the leaders move the place forward and make it a prosperous place and realised the love nelson mandela had for his people. >> what is the state of - sorry to put it
>> well, the anc, the ruling party is the people's party. they have a lot of support. that said, people are questioning the before of some of the politicians, they are wondering where is the country going forward. the mining incident you spoke about, 16 august, when miners on strike were trying to call for higher wages. police aped fire. 34 were shot and killed. the pictures shocked the world. they remind us of the apartheid dates when white policemen would shoot black people who were...
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what happens when mandela goes effectively to the anc majority. there's still more than 60% of the vote is what they get. they're being challenged from both left and right. that's going to be very interesting once we've gone through the next few weeks of memorialization as to how the dust settles on that. >> peter, 15 seconds, do you think -- i'm sorry about this -- but do you think mandela's legacy will stay alive or is this one of these moments which seems very, very profound, five years ago we will have forgotten him 1234. >> talking about the brand of mandela is the emphasis on the u.s. has been so much on the forgiveness that we have forgotten that he only forgave once he had actually overcome an unjust system and that the struggle in south africa continues to create a more just society. just as it did in the united states after legal segregation was abolished but there were still massive economic inequities. my hope is mandela is not too domesticated and sanitized now in his death. >> thank you all three of you. the two peters, a wonderful p
what happens when mandela goes effectively to the anc majority. there's still more than 60% of the vote is what they get. they're being challenged from both left and right. that's going to be very interesting once we've gone through the next few weeks of memorialization as to how the dust settles on that. >> peter, 15 seconds, do you think -- i'm sorry about this -- but do you think mandela's legacy will stay alive or is this one of these moments which seems very, very profound, five...
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and he was the founder of anc. and nelson mandela's predecessor. so our movements go way back, almost 75 years together. >> hold one minute, ambassador young. i'm going to ask you to hold one minute. thank you charlene, i'm going to let you go. and i'm going to hold ambassador young. because joining us live from right outside of mandela's house in johannesburg, south africa, is nbc's ruhit kutru who's outside of the mandela home in south africa. what can you tell us is going on outside? >> reporter: well, al, there is an incredible crowd here. a gathering of perhaps a hundred people of all ages of black and white. a true representation of south africa. one interesting observation is perhaps how young this crowd is. i would estimate two-thirds of people who are less than 25 years old. people who have no memory of the darkest days of apartheid. but such is mandela's legacy that he means exactly the same thing to the young teenagers who are gathering here with flames singing songs from the history boo books, songs from the struggle to older people tha
and he was the founder of anc. and nelson mandela's predecessor. so our movements go way back, almost 75 years together. >> hold one minute, ambassador young. i'm going to ask you to hold one minute. thank you charlene, i'm going to let you go. and i'm going to hold ambassador young. because joining us live from right outside of mandela's house in johannesburg, south africa, is nbc's ruhit kutru who's outside of the mandela home in south africa. what can you tell us is going on outside?...
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a terrorist group, from margaret thatcher considered the anc a terrorist group and nelson mandela a terrorist. and this is the '80s. there was a lot of resistance to the idea of the government should fall, much less that this die vestment should take place at all. >> this was in the context of the cold war. and one of the most insidious things that the apartheid south african government did was they couched their oppression in terms of the communist struggle, that essentially the anc was riddled through with communists and pro-cubans. when nelson mandela was freed and made this tour. when he got to miami, he was actually rejected by the local government in miami, two mayors of miami and miami dade would not receive mandela because he was perceived as being pro-castro. so there was this whole sort of cold war fight that was tied up in the south african struggle. and it was part of the reason that the reagan administration opposed the idea of sanctions and divestment from south africa. >> please stay with us. >>> coming up, we will look at the presidency of nelson mandela and how he m
a terrorist group, from margaret thatcher considered the anc a terrorist group and nelson mandela a terrorist. and this is the '80s. there was a lot of resistance to the idea of the government should fall, much less that this die vestment should take place at all. >> this was in the context of the cold war. and one of the most insidious things that the apartheid south african government did was they couched their oppression in terms of the communist struggle, that essentially the anc was...
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to what extent can they keep him, what happens when mandela goes effectively to the anc majority. they're still more than 60% of the vote is what they get, but they're being challenged from essentially both left and right. and that's going to be very interesting once we have gone through the next few weeks of memorialization and how the dust settles on that. >> 15 seconds, do you think that mandela's legacy will stay alive or is this one of those moments which seems very, very profound five years ago will have forgotening him? >> my fear, talking about the brand of mandela's legacy is that the west, the emphasis has been so much on his legacy, that once he forgive and had overcome an unjust system, and that the struggle continues to create a more just society, just as it did in the united states after legal segregation was aboll learned. my hope a s that mandela isn't too domesticated and sanitized now in his death. >> thank you all three of you. wonderful panel. up next, japan loves violent video games, just like america. but they have almost no gun violence. why? we'll explain o
to what extent can they keep him, what happens when mandela goes effectively to the anc majority. they're still more than 60% of the vote is what they get, but they're being challenged from essentially both left and right. and that's going to be very interesting once we have gone through the next few weeks of memorialization and how the dust settles on that. >> 15 seconds, do you think that mandela's legacy will stay alive or is this one of those moments which seems very, very profound...
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war and didn't have that significant blood shed and didn't have the call for revenge and in the new anc there are members and some younger who still want that, they want to take property back from whites in country and some are worried with mandela being gone less of a moderation of views. >> that is why he is a controversial figure and represents the future of anc and you see streets on the stadium and their names are being changed and some people who had english names on the streets that live for years and years are seeing the change happen and for some it's unsettling. >> this is a celebration and seeing more sadness now than you had earlier but it's here and hearing cheering in the background and we will be out here and we will keep on talking to people and we will send you back there in a few minutes. >> thank you, appreciate it, thank you very much. let's talk about what ali raised and morgan raised which is talking about south africa moving forward and also looking back as well. and you wanted to take issue with this idea of a civil war, right, in your mind, proud south african,
war and didn't have that significant blood shed and didn't have the call for revenge and in the new anc there are members and some younger who still want that, they want to take property back from whites in country and some are worried with mandela being gone less of a moderation of views. >> that is why he is a controversial figure and represents the future of anc and you see streets on the stadium and their names are being changed and some people who had english names on the streets...
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his anc colleagues were rounded up and jailed. in 1963 during what came to be called the ravonia trial, the government tried and convicted mandela and seven of the top command of the anc on charges of sabotage and fomenting revolution. a capital offense. the eight were sentenced to life in prison. even from his cell on robin island, the alcatraz like island, six miles from cape town, mandela was uncompromising, says helen, a parliament service person. >> mattresses, the fact that thr between, and mostly about the behavior of the war den who has a tattoo on the back of his hands of the swastika. he says this man is very bad, he treats us badly. >> but even then mandela waseve. >> remarkably self confidentman. he was never making outrageous remarks about the government. he was always, what he said was you know, in keeping with someone who wanted peace. >> and he used the captiveaudiee his young followers for future he envisioned, they even called it mandela university. tokio sapelli was one of the students. >> he was teaching spirit
his anc colleagues were rounded up and jailed. in 1963 during what came to be called the ravonia trial, the government tried and convicted mandela and seven of the top command of the anc on charges of sabotage and fomenting revolution. a capital offense. the eight were sentenced to life in prison. even from his cell on robin island, the alcatraz like island, six miles from cape town, mandela was uncompromising, says helen, a parliament service person. >> mattresses, the fact that thr...
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mandela was founder of anc, african national congress, others south african national union. i was used to those men and a few women shouting and screaming at each other. they were really arch rivals. when mr. mandela came, he didn't raise his voice. he didn't argue with anybody. he didn't put anybody down. they were rivals. i had never met a south african who wasn't shouting and really angry all the time. i know he was angry, but he didn't use his energy foolishly. so it was a year after that he was imprisoned. i became friends with his wife then, winnie mandela. and we continued to support each other over the years and over the oceans. and she would tell me how he was. he wasn't vitt uperative with t guards. i was part of hillary clinton's delegates when he was inaugurated. i sat there and watched the guards, who had guarded him for 27 years, sitting in the right sights, in the best seats, invited by mr. mandela. not to say look how you treated me. i'm free now and i can ya ya ya at you, not that at all. in fact, he was gracious, welcome. he said, this is south africa. this
mandela was founder of anc, african national congress, others south african national union. i was used to those men and a few women shouting and screaming at each other. they were really arch rivals. when mr. mandela came, he didn't raise his voice. he didn't argue with anybody. he didn't put anybody down. they were rivals. i had never met a south african who wasn't shouting and really angry all the time. i know he was angry, but he didn't use his energy foolishly. so it was a year after that...
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the anc was a terrorist organization at one point. he has since said great things about nelson mandela. i like that what's been said about nelson mandela is said in the same way the pope said what he did. forgiveness and redemption. the pope's widely misinterpreted. and mischaracterized statements. it's active engagement. taking care of each other with solidarity and subsidiary. >> when you say about accusing darth vader, so to speak. this is not just about rhetoric. this is the policy that prevented the anc -- when they had the feet on the neck of nelson mandela -- >> he said, let's forgive. let's forgive dick cheney. let's forgive these people. i think one of the fascinating things about nelson mandela, he wasn't a saint. he made a lot of mistakes. he readily admitted it. he said, i'm not a saint unless you think a saint is a sinner who gets up and tries again every time. he changed an entire country and a world in what he said. done through acts of humility. like the pope has done. authentic acts of humility. >> i think -- one of t
the anc was a terrorist organization at one point. he has since said great things about nelson mandela. i like that what's been said about nelson mandela is said in the same way the pope said what he did. forgiveness and redemption. the pope's widely misinterpreted. and mischaracterized statements. it's active engagement. taking care of each other with solidarity and subsidiary. >> when you say about accusing darth vader, so to speak. this is not just about rhetoric. this is the policy...
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he embodied the anc's approach, their principles. but he wasn't the only one. during my time in south africa, especially in the late '80s, when apartheid still existed, i met any number of south african, leaders, rank and pile, who had been through terrible injustice. fellow graduates of robin island, for example. people who had been tortured or under banning orders. and almost to a person i heard similar words from them that we heard from nelson mandela after he was released from prison. and in many ways my love for south africa and my inspiration from south africans came from those years when mandela was still in prison, when we didn't even know what he looked like because there was only one old picture. he was the leader. he was the "avatar" of the movement. but there's much, much more, and he was standing on a firm base, firm foundation. >> you know, it's been surprising, mark, you know, on the one handle, this effort to sanitize mandela that we're seeing now, you know, i'm trying to make this kind of play around king, and yet also -- and this is maybe even
he embodied the anc's approach, their principles. but he wasn't the only one. during my time in south africa, especially in the late '80s, when apartheid still existed, i met any number of south african, leaders, rank and pile, who had been through terrible injustice. fellow graduates of robin island, for example. people who had been tortured or under banning orders. and almost to a person i heard similar words from them that we heard from nelson mandela after he was released from prison. and...
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and what was interesting is, of course, there were many factions within the anc. some of them who thought, no, this is our time. and no, not reconciliation, but it's our time. and he would have none of pit. and started an amazing process in the country. bringing people and communities together. and united what i think many of us were worried was an impossible situation to unite a country peacefully behind his leadership. >> there are so many instances both during his presidency and afterwards where he brought people together where he was able to forge compromise. and we've heard a lot about president obama from him and from others about how he has been inspired by nelson mandela. you can't get a more vivid contrast than between the way nelson mandela operated and much of what we see in congress these days. is there anything you see at all that might suggest that this will give people a moment to pause to think and to say maybe there are lessons here to be learned. maybe there are ways. i mean, this is a man who forgave his persecutors, people who jailed him, peopl
and what was interesting is, of course, there were many factions within the anc. some of them who thought, no, this is our time. and no, not reconciliation, but it's our time. and he would have none of pit. and started an amazing process in the country. bringing people and communities together. and united what i think many of us were worried was an impossible situation to unite a country peacefully behind his leadership. >> there are so many instances both during his presidency and...
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the anc and the other major organizations opposing apartheid has been nonviolent organizing. they decided maybe that wasn't enough and nelson mandella was one of the leaders who went underground to help start it. they would try to sabotage the state. they banned the amc. they made it illegal to be a member of that group. nelson mandella was arrested for treason in 1961. in 1962, he was convicted of traveling illegally. while he was already serving that sentence, while he was already in prison, they put him on trial again, this time for sabotage. they convicted him and sentenced him to life on robin island. he began a new sentence that was a life sentence. and for the first 18 years of it, his cell had no bed, no plumbing of ne kind. he was permitted one visitor per year for 30 minutes. he became a symbol, worldwide, of the fight to stop apartheid. the south african government would not allow a picture of him to be taken in prison for decades. so the image was always him when he had been locked away. he served 27 years in prison. when fw clerk was elected president in 1989, it
the anc and the other major organizations opposing apartheid has been nonviolent organizing. they decided maybe that wasn't enough and nelson mandella was one of the leaders who went underground to help start it. they would try to sabotage the state. they banned the amc. they made it illegal to be a member of that group. nelson mandella was arrested for treason in 1961. in 1962, he was convicted of traveling illegally. while he was already serving that sentence, while he was already in prison,...
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he said i'm a loyal member of the anc. the world had changed and had to go away from the socialist philosophy. he changed radically in a very short amount of time. one of the things he always said to me, he was never high bound about haenging his mind. he said when circumstances change i changed my mind. what do you do. another great lesson for politicians. so he evolved so tremendously when he came out of prison. it was astonishing to watch. >> it is astonishing. incredible story. >> the transition between icon to being in power is one of those impossible things to do. >> it was much more difficult coming out of prison and being a practical politician than being in prison. mandela's greatest teacher said i haven't had a good night's sleep since i left prison because now have responsibility. >> in 1994 brian williams interviewed nelson mandela. he asked him about his predecessor f.w. de klerk. >> my relationship with mr. de klerk and he's one of those south africans that i hold in high regard. we have had differences where
he said i'm a loyal member of the anc. the world had changed and had to go away from the socialist philosophy. he changed radically in a very short amount of time. one of the things he always said to me, he was never high bound about haenging his mind. he said when circumstances change i changed my mind. what do you do. another great lesson for politicians. so he evolved so tremendously when he came out of prison. it was astonishing to watch. >> it is astonishing. incredible story....
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all i knew the anc was being backed by comb anytime munists learned that south africa was wrong. if you feel really strongly about this man, you can still act, because there's plenty of people around the world who are under the thumb of evil. and there's a lot of celebrities who don't care. there are women still being circumcised in africa. it's a horrible practice. there are gays persecuted in iran. there are christians in islamic countries that are being persecuted. the time is ripe for a lot of new mandelas. >> i like that, greg, that might be my favorite comment you've made so far. >> just a quick thought. and i don't have as much knowledge on nelson mandela as the rest of you. i'll just say, a man would appears to have a lot of passion, a lot of resolve, a lot of principle, not necessarily agree with a lot of the things he stood for, so i'll say rest in peace. i think it's a nice outreach. president and mrs. obama reached out to the bushes, 43, and they will be joining, the bushes will be joining the president on air force one to go to the memorial services next week. intere
all i knew the anc was being backed by comb anytime munists learned that south africa was wrong. if you feel really strongly about this man, you can still act, because there's plenty of people around the world who are under the thumb of evil. and there's a lot of celebrities who don't care. there are women still being circumcised in africa. it's a horrible practice. there are gays persecuted in iran. there are christians in islamic countries that are being persecuted. the time is ripe for a lot...
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lots of times, that it wasn't just me who created this democracy, it was the collective, it was the anc, the african national congress, the people who sacrificed their lives who aren't on the world stage, who didn't, you know, make it to be the heros of the struggle. and he was always a party man and he was always saying it wasn't only his fault. it wasn't only his creation. >> that he was part of a group of again racing of a number of generations of young activists who brought an end to apartheid. so when we talk about his political life, it's important to remember that it was rich and it was nuanced and it wasn't as simple as saying he was the sole leader of this democracy. take a listen. [ music playing ] >> reporter: it was here in johannesburg that nelson mandela's political consciouses in was awakened, the leader of the youth wing of the african national congress the anc, can young mandela made a decision to fight the apartheid state with force. he was prepared for the worst, even when he and others were tried for treason and sabotage, acts punishable by death. >> it would have be
lots of times, that it wasn't just me who created this democracy, it was the collective, it was the anc, the african national congress, the people who sacrificed their lives who aren't on the world stage, who didn't, you know, make it to be the heros of the struggle. and he was always a party man and he was always saying it wasn't only his fault. it wasn't only his creation. >> that he was part of a group of again racing of a number of generations of young activists who brought an end to...
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trying to temper violence between his party and the anc and supporters of the inkata freedom party, who wanted no negotiations with the government that held them down. thousands were killed in black on black fighting. his marriage to winnie mandella, a powerful political force was crumbling. the woman who supported him during incarceration was accused of having affairs and being linked to the murderous violence in south africa. they finally divorced. through it all they led the country to broader democracy and in 1994 nelson mandela voted for himself in a free election. he won and was inaugust rated as the first black president of his country. >> on this day, you took your destiny in your own hands. you decided that nothing could prevent you from exercising your hard-won right to elect a government of your choice. >> he served one term, leading reforms in child health care and education. modernizing infrastructure. and healing. >> his close relationship with leaders like muammar gaddafi and castro drew criticism, he still visited the white houses meeting with three sitting american prop
trying to temper violence between his party and the anc and supporters of the inkata freedom party, who wanted no negotiations with the government that held them down. thousands were killed in black on black fighting. his marriage to winnie mandella, a powerful political force was crumbling. the woman who supported him during incarceration was accused of having affairs and being linked to the murderous violence in south africa. they finally divorced. through it all they led the country to...
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with him no longer as the spiritual leader of the anc. at least no longer on this earth. what is that going to do to politics going forward? >> when he walked away and said don't call me, i'll call you, he left politics. so for a number of years now, he has not been on the scene. i think to a certain extent, that's unfortunate. i think that this young democracy is having some missteps. >> it does feel that way. >> a few stumbles. it's difficult because mandela has not been there to way in. maybe at this moment when people are not on the streets, but contemplating what mandela stood for, they might come to a better moment than they are in currently. >> put into perspective, that was an amazing three or four-year period in history. when you look back, it's stunning and like how did we lose the momentum? we were almost there. >> it takes -- you did have prague and the berlin wall and the leaders who were able to have a vision. bush 41 had a vision in terms of german reunionification. there were leaders in different parts of the world. >> who seize the moment. >>a i new econo
with him no longer as the spiritual leader of the anc. at least no longer on this earth. what is that going to do to politics going forward? >> when he walked away and said don't call me, i'll call you, he left politics. so for a number of years now, he has not been on the scene. i think to a certain extent, that's unfortunate. i think that this young democracy is having some missteps. >> it does feel that way. >> a few stumbles. it's difficult because mandela has not been...
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you don't vote on a president, anc won, you vote on a party. we were in a hotel in a gathering with mr. mandela. i'll never forget, he said you cannot be afraid to grow and evolve. you have got to be willing to continue to grow, if you're going to be effective, and he grew. you've got to remember there were a lot of nationalist groups that said he had turned soft, sold out. there were a lot of different tensions there. he was able to withstand the hatred and opposition of the african, a whites and he was focused on democracy. >> he was incredibly tenacious in that he had the question of black nationalism versus the question of integration. eugene, you have a great piece and i'll read an exert of it today. we should remember not only the man who embraced his former enemies but also the man who refused to be bowed by those enemies, who remained militant despite 27 years of imprisonment who walked out of jail with his head held high and eyes toward the future. >> we think of nelson mandela and see that smile that's like sunshine. it just lights up
you don't vote on a president, anc won, you vote on a party. we were in a hotel in a gathering with mr. mandela. i'll never forget, he said you cannot be afraid to grow and evolve. you have got to be willing to continue to grow, if you're going to be effective, and he grew. you've got to remember there were a lot of nationalist groups that said he had turned soft, sold out. there were a lot of different tensions there. he was able to withstand the hatred and opposition of the african, a whites...
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but today, i understand from many high ranking anc officials homeland security continues to treat some of them as needing a waiver to get into the united states, which is an embarrassment and what secretary rice said today, at the time, we can't allow president mandela, a man of his stature to be continue to be treated as a terrorist by the united states. we needed to do this and do it before he passed away. but also, we need to honor his memory today by also making sure that homeland security honors of legislation that secretary kerry and for that matter senator obama when they were both senators, helped to pass. so, yes, officially they are off the terror list but the way in which homeland security continues to interpret the laws, they are creating problems for the united states. >> that history is a reminder as we're in a moment of what we call international unity, the foreign policy legacy of everything related to the apartheid regime was divided in this country and many other nations. you look at say the early origins of investment campaign where a young barack obama as a student
but today, i understand from many high ranking anc officials homeland security continues to treat some of them as needing a waiver to get into the united states, which is an embarrassment and what secretary rice said today, at the time, we can't allow president mandela, a man of his stature to be continue to be treated as a terrorist by the united states. we needed to do this and do it before he passed away. but also, we need to honor his memory today by also making sure that homeland security...
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a senior south african military intelligence person who said, quote, our strategy was to paint the anc as communist surrogates, the more we could present ourselves as anti-communists, the more people looked at us with respect. people you could have hardly believed cooperated with us politically when it came to the soviets. i mean, april, i was able to find that in like five minutes online. >> yeah. well, i want to put this in perspective. i talked to former president bill clinton yesterday. did an interview with him and he said, you know, with this issue about nelson mandela and his friendships and those who supported him, like gadhafi and ka castro, he said we don't look like ourselves view themselves. when we went on the tour, the historic africa tour with bill clinton in the second term and joburg, nelson mandela was asked a question about the friendships and nelson mandela himself said, look, if you don't like my friendship, something to this effect, you can go jump in the pool. >> yeah. >> nelson mandela himself said this. >> yep. >> and you have to remember, you know, that when p
a senior south african military intelligence person who said, quote, our strategy was to paint the anc as communist surrogates, the more we could present ourselves as anti-communists, the more people looked at us with respect. people you could have hardly believed cooperated with us politically when it came to the soviets. i mean, april, i was able to find that in like five minutes online. >> yeah. well, i want to put this in perspective. i talked to former president bill clinton...
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some of the black opponents of anc fought on. one of the first stories i covered was in the anc township where it's zulu warriors from a hostile that marched in the dead of night and slaughtered 40 people women and children among them. so, you know, it was not a simple matter of de klerk deciding to negotiate and everything got easy. you know, white bitter enders assassinated the head of the communist party, one of the most promising young black leaders around that time. a bunch of kind of resistance types tried to storm one of the african so-called homelands. so there were people who tried to keep the fight going. but the balance just had had shift sod dramatically that, you know, de klerk was a realist. and they desperately needed a realist on the other side of the table. >> mr. delms, when i was talking about nelson mandela right before he was officially elected, he gave a lot of credit to the united states. i thought he was being very generous in saying our country was the most -- enemy of the world. do you think united state
some of the black opponents of anc fought on. one of the first stories i covered was in the anc township where it's zulu warriors from a hostile that marched in the dead of night and slaughtered 40 people women and children among them. so, you know, it was not a simple matter of de klerk deciding to negotiate and everything got easy. you know, white bitter enders assassinated the head of the communist party, one of the most promising young black leaders around that time. a bunch of kind of...
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the anc. you know, bishop tutu's crowd which is orchestrated by the soviet union. they said we've got to deal with these folks. we've got to meet with them. and i said baloney. >> and there were plenty of republican critics in 1990 when mandela was released from prison and addressed a joint session of congress. congressman tom delay said, quote, nelson mandela is no friend to liberty, democracy, or human rights. and congressman william danmeyer said nelson mandela's appearance before this body is a national disgrace. nelson mandela is no martin luther king. he is more like h. rap brown or willie horton. many republicans may embrace mandela today, but let's not rewrite history. in fact, some still attack him for accepting help from communist nation. but ignore the fact that for years america propped up the apartheid regime. i talked about that on "meet the press" yesterday. >> we chose sides. we chose the wrong side. people in this country turned us around toward the right side. that set the stage for mandela to evolve. but if you're drowning and someone throws you
the anc. you know, bishop tutu's crowd which is orchestrated by the soviet union. they said we've got to deal with these folks. we've got to meet with them. and i said baloney. >> and there were plenty of republican critics in 1990 when mandela was released from prison and addressed a joint session of congress. congressman tom delay said, quote, nelson mandela is no friend to liberty, democracy, or human rights. and congressman william danmeyer said nelson mandela's appearance before this...
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it is not that nelson mandela and the anc believed in violence. it is a people against whom the government was waging war took the action of self-defense. that's an internationally recognized strategy -- >> they took responsibility for violent acts. maybe we should put it that way. >> that's not what you said initially and it's really dangerous to keep perpetuating this articulation. nobody ever declared de clerk a terrorist. that's not what happened. what they did was to label the response to the violence. and that is dangerous because it's arguing and it's saying that mandela who by the way never renounced violence -- in the 27 years he was in jail, they said to him, renounce violence and we will free you and he said, i will not because that manifesto said, we have two choices, submit or die. and they said, we will never submit. >> we're going to take a quick break. when we come back, minimum wage workers in more than 100 cities protested and demanded a livable salary. but is raising pay the best way to really combat poverty in this country? the
it is not that nelson mandela and the anc believed in violence. it is a people against whom the government was waging war took the action of self-defense. that's an internationally recognized strategy -- >> they took responsibility for violent acts. maybe we should put it that way. >> that's not what you said initially and it's really dangerous to keep perpetuating this articulation. nobody ever declared de clerk a terrorist. that's not what happened. what they did was to label the...
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in fact, lots of people called at that time the anc terrorists and when he came out of prison, when he said i say to you all, take your guns, your knives, your pangers and throw them into the sea, fully declaring in his first -- practically his first public address after 28 years of being in the wilderness in prison, no, this has to be peaceful. this was huge and then you know, you heard president zuma say this is the father, the founding father of our democratic south africa, and you heard robyn talk about the tribal homeland where he lived and the rural area where he's going to be finally laid to rest, and i think i will never forget the pictures not just of the snaking lines of hundreds of thousands of millions of people in the towns and the cities who cast their ballots for nelson mandela in 1994, but the helicopter shots of the countryside, when people were literally lining up in zigzag lines so quietly, so peacefully, so joyfully, just to have the privilege of casting their first ever vote in 1994, this majority black country, they had never had that right before and they stepped
in fact, lots of people called at that time the anc terrorists and when he came out of prison, when he said i say to you all, take your guns, your knives, your pangers and throw them into the sea, fully declaring in his first -- practically his first public address after 28 years of being in the wilderness in prison, no, this has to be peaceful. this was huge and then you know, you heard president zuma say this is the father, the founding father of our democratic south africa, and you heard...
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is skilled, largest hit by having part of the guerrilla army, the formation, the armed wing of the anc and the chief of intelligence. slate got this succession of people from different parts of the liberation movement taking over who had been out of the country for longer to time, or had been imprisoned for laundries of time. and to a certain extent that shape some of the mistakes that have been made in the last yea years. >> does thabo mbeki talk but what surprised we came back after all those years and except? >> want to thank you quickly learn when you interview people or politicians and political power is nothing ever surprise them. so the main thing that upset him every time i was into being and is, i would ask that question what would surprise you to what was unusual, what jumped out at you? every, i would say that he would lean back, take a look at me with a lizardlike look when you know you have irritated him. and that would come. know, my brother, never surprised. never admit you were surprised. i think the things that surprised thabo mbeki certainly who was the second preside
is skilled, largest hit by having part of the guerrilla army, the formation, the armed wing of the anc and the chief of intelligence. slate got this succession of people from different parts of the liberation movement taking over who had been out of the country for longer to time, or had been imprisoned for laundries of time. and to a certain extent that shape some of the mistakes that have been made in the last yea years. >> does thabo mbeki talk but what surprised we came back after all...
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he finally became the commander of the uk, the military arm of south african, the anc troops. he was a freedom fighter fighting to end a system that lost all credibility in the world. but also having come through the scars of exile, the scars of 27 years of jail, through all of that, he said we must get up from here and don't linger here, that we must choose at this point reconciliation over retaliation and revenge. that's a critical turning point. he could have come out demanding revenge and there would have been a bloody mess in south africa. today, south africa has the fastest growing economy in all of africa because he chose reconciliation over retaliation and revenge. >> reverend jesse jackson, thank you so much. good luck with your vigil this evening. i'm sure it will be very moving. >> thank you, sir. >>> coming up in the next hour, bill clinton is in "the situation room" with wolf blitzer to talk about the legacy of nelson mandela. when we come back, the hollywood version of nelson mandela. some of the 20 or so actors who have portrayed him share their stories, next. c
he finally became the commander of the uk, the military arm of south african, the anc troops. he was a freedom fighter fighting to end a system that lost all credibility in the world. but also having come through the scars of exile, the scars of 27 years of jail, through all of that, he said we must get up from here and don't linger here, that we must choose at this point reconciliation over retaliation and revenge. that's a critical turning point. he could have come out demanding revenge and...
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remember, the anc was a radical revolutionary organization. it drew a lot of support from communist countries, from revolutionary movements, castro, gadhafi, arafat. everyone thought he was going to be a left wing maniac. he was very pro business. he was very pro markets because he understood the future of south africa depended on the white business class staying there, being productive. interestingly, 27 years in prison he came out of an old left wing background. he didn't bust the budget spending money on blacks. because of that corporations trusted him. they understood that he didn't want to nationalize anything. he's asking us to behave ethically. i think it's a very good model for the future for third world leaders, particularly to look at. you can, you know, as long as you understand the power of the market, you can also understand that you can ask businesspeople to behave honorably. >> your prime time special "global lessons on guns" tomorrow night 7:00 p.m. right here on cnn. thank you. >>> coming up, elton john, shania twain, celine d
remember, the anc was a radical revolutionary organization. it drew a lot of support from communist countries, from revolutionary movements, castro, gadhafi, arafat. everyone thought he was going to be a left wing maniac. he was very pro business. he was very pro markets because he understood the future of south africa depended on the white business class staying there, being productive. interestingly, 27 years in prison he came out of an old left wing background. he didn't bust the budget...
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are we covering up some of the realities of how individuals regarded both the anc and more specifically, nelson mandela in all these eulogies? >> i think no doubt we are. nelson mandela's spiritual giant, political revolutionary, we are witnessing the santa clausification of nelson mandel. a we turned the revolutionary into an old man with a toy bag. no longer really full of the fire. we can at 95, brother nelson mandela was still full of fire. he had that militant tenderness and sub versive sweetness and radical gentleness, tied to refusing to be fearful or intimidated in the face of a vicious white supremacist apartheid regime. >> ted cruz, the senator from texas, paid respect on facebook. he said nelson mandela will live in history for defenders of liberty around the globe. someone said he was a murderer and a communist. another one said sad to see you feel this way. he was a terrorist. i guess you have only seen the hollywood movies. getting away from what the comment section of the internet generally is, let's talk about some of these specific charges. communist, terrorist. where d
are we covering up some of the realities of how individuals regarded both the anc and more specifically, nelson mandela in all these eulogies? >> i think no doubt we are. nelson mandela's spiritual giant, political revolutionary, we are witnessing the santa clausification of nelson mandel. a we turned the revolutionary into an old man with a toy bag. no longer really full of the fire. we can at 95, brother nelson mandela was still full of fire. he had that militant tenderness and sub...
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this is cyril ramaposa number two man in the anc, has gone on to be a successful businessman here in south africa. so we'll join the program and jump in here to describe events as we. -- as we find out they ae happening. >> -- succeed if we reach out to each other. this is the man that we have come to say farewell to. a man who has built our nation. in many ways, we are here today to tell madiba that his long walk is over, that he can finally rest, that he can enjoy the view of our beautiful country, of south africa. a view he discovered when he began walking the hills of his birthplace. his long walk is over, but ours is only beginning, and with t t that, as we walk down memory lane, i would like us now to do what he would have wanted us to do. that is, to open this memorial service with an interfaith opening prayer. i would like to call upon chief rabbi warren, the hindu faith, for the muslim faith and archbishop of the christian faith to come and give us opening prayers on an interfaith basis. please, go ahead, chief rabbi. >> god and king who is full of compassion, god of the spi
this is cyril ramaposa number two man in the anc, has gone on to be a successful businessman here in south africa. so we'll join the program and jump in here to describe events as we. -- as we find out they ae happening. >> -- succeed if we reach out to each other. this is the man that we have come to say farewell to. a man who has built our nation. in many ways, we are here today to tell madiba that his long walk is over, that he can finally rest, that he can enjoy the view of our...
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Dec 5, 2013
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in that october, that was the first time the anc was allowed to gather in the legal fashion. it was considered a terrorist group at the time. i remember how the crowd hushed for the first time. they raised their hands in the air and sang the national anthem. it means god bless africa, had been illegal up until that point in october 1989. at that point you knew things were changing rapidly and the clerk had started something he wasn't going to be able to stop. a par tide was ending. nelson man dell laugh was to be released from prison. he was held on robin island five miles off the coast and like alcatraz like many years. he talked where he wrote his long walk to freedom, auto biography. they spent grueling hours in the sun breaking rocks on the island looking in the distance at the mountain in cape town and the beautiful cape town in the distance. mandela became close to his prison guards. i remember when we were down there in 1990 in february that they had to release a picture of what he looked like. it had been illegal for any newspaper to publish a picture of mandela. in f
in that october, that was the first time the anc was allowed to gather in the legal fashion. it was considered a terrorist group at the time. i remember how the crowd hushed for the first time. they raised their hands in the air and sang the national anthem. it means god bless africa, had been illegal up until that point in october 1989. at that point you knew things were changing rapidly and the clerk had started something he wasn't going to be able to stop. a par tide was ending. nelson man...
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Dec 3, 2013
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generally they don't give you insure ance if you don't cut th a check. is this going to encourage enrollment? as ed just talked about, getting people on the website, the bigger problem may be getting them actually covered. mark is with me tonight. with the american enterprise institute and former speechwriter for former president bush. shouldn't the paying part be the easiest, most seamless part of the process, mark? >> you would think the business would want to get your money. but again, we aren't dealing with the private sector, we are dealing with the government. just this weekend, they said, the website is working with, this is a quote, private sector velocity and effectiveness. they actually said that. unless amazon.com works 90% of the time, unless it is under maintenance, doesn't transmit your information where you make a purchase, and have an on-line waiting room where you can park until there is capacity for you to shop. and look at the 90% staker. they said it works 90% of the time when it is not under maintenance. what does that mean? they don
generally they don't give you insure ance if you don't cut th a check. is this going to encourage enrollment? as ed just talked about, getting people on the website, the bigger problem may be getting them actually covered. mark is with me tonight. with the american enterprise institute and former speechwriter for former president bush. shouldn't the paying part be the easiest, most seamless part of the process, mark? >> you would think the business would want to get your money. but again,...